What does the Bible have to say about AI? Oxford professor John Lennox just wrote a book to answer that question. He begins in the Book of Genesis, where humanity is made in God's image, and ends in the Book of Revelation, which tells us that the end of history has already been written according to God's plan.
Meanwhile, the air is thick with apocalyptic narratives. So... should we be worried about AI?
Timestamps:
0:01 We live in a word-based universe
9:30 Why trust the Bible?
23:25 The problem with materialism
33:35 The risks of narrow AI vs. general AI
41:40 The AI race is about making God
46:02 Does AI change what it means to be human?
48:07 Can machines become conscious?
52:47 What we're missing about AI ethics
Table of Contents
[08:49] Scripture Reading Methodology
[17:31] John Lennox: Lennox's Background and AI
[26:17] Large Language Models and Truth
[36:18] Societal Impact of AI and Faith
[00:00] Introduction
David Perell:
Well, the thing I want to talk about—I want to talk about AI later—but what I want to start off with is John 1:1 about the word, where in the beginning was the word and the word was with God, and the word was God, and we live in this word-based universe. I want to obviously talk about words, talk about writing, but I think that's a good jumping-off point of why—why is that such a profound idea?
John Lennox:
The idea that this is a word-based universe has been profoundly important in my own life because of the pressure of naturalism or materialism, trying to argue the exact opposite.
Because words that carry meaning are a very high-level thing in human experience. And the very fact that in two main areas we find that word base, I think, poses a fatal threat to the materialistic interpretation of the universe.
The first is in mathematics, which is my field, that we can, in the language of mathematics—and it is a language; it's the most precise language we've got in a way—we can encapsulate some of the ways in which the universe behaves, notably going back to Kepler and Newton and Clark Maxwell and so on. It's proved to be a brilliant tool for understanding part of the way in which the universe is and works.
And then secondly, research in biology has brought us to the longest word of any kind that we've ever discovered, which is the human genome, the genetic code, 3.4 billion letters long. They're chemical letters, of course, but they function precisely as a word with meaning because they code for various proteins and all the rest of it. So there, those two major disciplines—physics, chemistry—we got mathematics underpinning them, and in biology we've got this fundamental word.
It is the fact that in all our human experience, words come from minds. You only have to see the word "exit" above a door. It's only four letters. But if you ask for the origin of that, people will explain it in terms of, "Well, this sign had to be made, and may have been made by automated machinery, but somewhere there's a mind that has chosen to put a word that means exit up there."
So, if we will attribute mind to words of four letters long, it's rather curious when we come to a word of 3.4 billion letters long that we say it happens by chance and necessity. That to my mind is nonsense, and I prefer an explanation that makes sense to one that doesn't make any sense.
David Perell:
Right.
John Lennox:
And.
David Perell:
As you've gone about reading scripture, spending time in the poetry of the Psalms, the literature of the Old Testament, how do you feel like that has rubbed off on your own writing?
John Lennox:
That's very hard to measure. We're influenced by many things in our own writing. But what I probably need to explain is I had a genius of a mentor.
David Perell:
What did he see about ancient literature? You were talking about the ways that it was almost in conversation with other literature. What did he see that you were missing?
John Lennox:
Well, what I had not come across before was probably two things. One was structure, and the other is thought flow.
David Perell:
Yeah, it's funny, something very similar. I feel like I'm in the process of having that revelation that you had many years ago. And there's a few things that have really struck me. So the way that we talk about it is observation, interpretation, application. So often when people read the Scriptures, they jump to, what should I do?
David Perell:
And so often it's just what words are repeated. Why is this book being written?
[08:49] Scripture Reading Methodology
John Lennox:
I think that question has many aspects to it. What constitutes knowledge? Is it that one is asking to feel that it's God-breathed, or to have some inner sense that's God-breathed? I'll give you my take on it.
David Perell:
Yeah.
John Lennox:
I understand from Scripture that God is prepared to speak through his word to those that take it seriously, and Christ promised his disciples that he would reveal Himself to them.
David Perell:
You know, you used the word awesome, and that's to be awestruck, and it's related to words like mystery and wonder. As I think of my own thinking of what is the core discipline of my thinking life that exists now that didn't exist five years ago? I think it's the cultivation of wonder. I think I used to very much feel that the world ended with my ability to explain something, and now I don't feel that way.
John Lennox:
Good.
David Perell:
And I've more questions there than answers, but I think a belief in God has opened me up to new portals of wonder.
John Lennox:
Well, that runs parallel to what C.S. Lewis said years ago. I believe in God, something like, "I believe in the sun, not because I see its light." It's dangerous to look at directly, but because in its light, I see everything else.
David Perell:
What do you mean?
[17:31] John Lennox: Lennox's Background and AI
John Lennox:
Well, what I mean by that is, if you want to explain a motor car engine or an automobile engine, as you say in your country, you could resort to physics and automobile engineering and all of that, and you'd have a scientific explanation. But you could also talk about Henry Ford. That's a different kind of explanation. It's in terms of an agent with a purpose.
And I often say to people, when they ask me, "Does science conflict with God as an explanation?" I say, absolutely not. Science no more conflicts with God as an explanation for the universe than Henry Ford conflicts with physics, chemistry, and automobile engineering as an explanation for the automobile. They're complementary.
And the thing about explanation, and I'm fascinated about it and I've written quite a bit about it, is it's often less complete than you think. Let me give an example of that from science. I wasn't very well taught physics as a young person, and I thought that the law of gravity explained gravity, but it doesn't. Even Newton realized that.
He uttered a famous Latin phrase about "a non fingo hypotheses," I don't make hypotheses. In other words, I don't know what gravity is, but I can give you a mathematical formulation that will enable you to calculate its effect.
But that is not to say what it is. In fact, no one, even now you can ask your own Nobel Prize winner, Richard Feynman, although he's dead, he was one of the best in California. Nobody knows what gravity is. And so even a scientific explanation apparently isn't complete in itself. Explanation has many, many different levels, and there's a huge literature devoted to explanation which is sufficient certainly for me to be very leery from someone says, "Oh, I've got the explanation of that." And the notion that their level explanation excludes the God explanation is in fact stupid.
David Perell:
What do you think happened in the world where we've closed this window into wonder and awe, and this the invitation that we all have to sort of stare and ask, "What's going on there? Maybe there's something more going on there that we don't know," because it feels like by embracing this myopia, we've constrained ourselves in terms of ideas, stories, whatever it is that we can actually access.
John Lennox:
I'm sure that's the case, but it's very complex to explain it historically. It has to do with the Enlightenment and the elevation of reason and the bad behavior of professing Christians who brought the God hypothesis into disrepute and were anti-science to a certain extent. There are all kinds of things involved in it.
David Perell:
Skeptical about biblical doctrine? Yes, because it.
John Lennox:
It seems too left brain. But of course, so is his research that's led to that book, which shouldn't make him all that skeptical.
David Perell:
My pastor, a few months ago, he asked me, "Why does God speak to us in poetry?"
John Lennox:
Well, relative importance we can talk about. But the fact of both being very important is clear because some parts of Scripture are written deliberately to be imagined. And the imagination is a hugely important part of human life.
[26:17] Large Language Models and Truth
David Perell:
Help me get specific. When you say stand for realities, like the one that I've sort of been captivated by is that Jesus comes back with a sword, but the sword isn't in his mouth.
John Lennox:
Yes.
David Perell:
So what's going on there when you say stands for reality? That's clearly very.
John Lennox:
Surreal as you watch that sword, but scripture helps you to interpret it. The word of God is like a two-edged sword. And the sword in his mouth is seen in the vision in chapter one, and he is dressed as a judge.
David Perell:
Tell me about this as you're writing, how you think about both making an argument and criticizing yourself. I know you like the Feynman line where it says, always bend over backwards to understand and criticize your own work because the easiest person to fool is yourself.
John Lennox:
Yeah, that's right.
David Perell:
So how do you go about doing this in the writing process?
John Lennox:
Well, there's several basic principles. I think there's the Feynman principle, but there's another principle, and that is I ask myself when I'm writing, how can this be understood?
David Perell:
How can this be understood?
John Lennox:
And the next question is, how could it be misunderstood? And that is a hugely helpful thing, far more helpful than the first question. Usually you know what you mean to convey by writing.
David Perell:
What do you mean?
John Lennox:
Allow people to read your stuff before you publish it and ask for the best criticism. So, for example, I'm doing at the moment, an autobiography. An autobiography is tricky because it's got the word auto in it, self.
David Perell:
What have they told you?
John Lennox:
Oh, all kinds of things.
David Perell:
What have you learned about autobiography now that you didn't know?
John Lennox:
Simple things. The danger of being episodical, if you're a person that has done a lot of speaking, the danger is you get tired of trying to construct the story. You say, "Well, I went to Leipzig, and I spoke on X, and then I went to Berlin, and I spoke on Y, and then I went to Chemnitz, and I spoke on Z." It becomes episodical, and there's no depth, there's only length.
David Perell:
Let's move into Revelation. I mean, you've just written a new book about the Book of Revelation, but also how it intersects with AI.
[36:18] Societal Impact of AI and Faith
John Lennox:
Yes and no.
David Perell:
What sort of something going on?
John Lennox:
Well, he couldn't say, of course, because he didn't know. But there's something going on that leads to these people being scared.
David Perell:
Well, I was thinking of Psalm 115, verse 8, which says those who make them become like them, so do all who trust in them. That we're making this AI in the image of humans, not in the image of God.
David Perell:
And it's, I mean this is idolatry left and right.
John Lennox:
Yes, it is. And that's another trajectory. I separate a whole lot of trajectories and the trouble is they get confused. But the first is to make super intelligent humans who are like gods with a small G. That's Harari. And that's to be done in one of two ways. First of all, to enhance existing humans, re-engineer their genetics and all the rest.
The second way is to start with a non-biological base like silicon and build some sort of entity that is created by human beings but will transcend them. Those are the two main avenues and some people are trying to do them together.
So there's that. But then there arises the question immediately, is this playing God? Is this another Tower of Babel? And it looks very much like it.
David Perell:
I mean it's literally the oldest story in the book.
John Lennox:
A towering desire to reach to heaven. And I've read quite a lot about skyscrapers in connection with my books in Genesis. It's very interesting.
David Perell:
I mean it's literally the oldest story in the book.
John Lennox:
If you read some of the literature on skyscrapers, you'll come across this quote: "Behind every skyscraper, there's an even greater ego." It puts it very neatly.
David Perell:
No kidding, and it leads me to my next question, which is this has been watching the LLMs, in many ways, become smarter than me.
John Lennox:
In certain respects.
David Perell:
In certain respects, thank you. But it's been dejecting, and it's made me ask, what does it mean to be a productive member of society? What does it mean to be a human being? That's what I want to ask you about. How has watching what has unfolded over the last many years changed your conception of what it means to be a human?
John Lennox:
Well, it's that question that got me into this whole field. I was asked some years ago to give a lecture on AI, an introduction to a conference of Christian leaders.
David Perell:
And that's the idea of imago dei.
John Lennox:
Yes, God made human beings in his image. He didn't make the stars in his image. They show his glory, but they're not in his image. That's a very different thing. You are more important than a star, actually.
David Perell:
Okay.
John Lennox:
And there's a little Garden of Eden at the bottom. The snake coils around it, and the whole idea is the humans are encouraged to leave innocence and get knowledge, like the university library.
David Perell:
So I guess there's two things going on here. One is the building of AI, which we've spoken about. I'm curious to know, do you use AI, and if so, how do you think about this? Is this how I would use it: to think better, to write better, versus no, I think that the whole thing is like a demonic force, and I'm going to keep that away from me.
John Lennox:
Well, I've got a smartphone, and if you've got a smartphone, you can't help using AI, because when you buy anything on Amazon, it's picking up the trail and it's suggesting new things to buy, so you can virtually not avoid it. If you use a computer that's connected to the Internet and use Microsoft Word, you get all sorts of pop-ups that are explaining things and helping you.
David Perell:
When you say there's no spiritual power in a machine, what do you mean?
John Lennox:
Well, in the sense that it doesn't have a spirit, it's simply a machine. It's sheer computing power, predictive computing power.
David Perell:
If you were to teach a semester-long seminar on writing, writing well, thinking well, how would you structure the curriculum?
John Lennox:
I have no idea. That's the first time I've heard that question. I'm a great believer in you teach that kind of thing by doing it.
David Perell:
Writing, you...
John Lennox:
You can't run a course, I would say, on what is writing and how you do it without actually writing. It's the same, it seems to me, with studying scripture. People say to me, "Tell me how to study scripture." Well, the only way I can do that is by doing it with you.
David Perell:
Right, do the dang thing.
John Lennox:
Yes, yes, you've got to start.
David Perell:
How'd you improve as a writer?
John Lennox:
Well, how one improves is by experience of allowing external criticism. I think that's the main thing. And reading other people's stuff, that's hugely important, and listening and talking to people. I think we're at an age where we do too much talking and too little listening.
David Perell:
Well, you were talking about the grammar of his—I think you said metaphor and illustration. Tell me about that with C.S. Lewis.
John Lennox:
The simple and obvious thing Lewis taught me is that metaphors stand for reality. If I say "my heart is broken," I'm not referring to this literal pump, but I'm referring to a very real experience. Or "the car was flying down the road." It wasn't literally flying. I meant it was going very fast. The metaphor is for going fast, so it's for a real thing, not for a literal thing.
David Perell:
John Lennox, thank you very much.
John Lennox:
Well, thank you. I've actually enjoyed it very much.
David Perell:
Good stuff.
